Mr Gong Yi is a famous guqin performer, educator and composer. This is a video of our interview with him.
Showing posts with label interview. Show all posts
Showing posts with label interview. Show all posts
25.3.12
Video Interview: "Great Masters of Chinese Music" - Gong Yi (龔一)
Mr Gong Yi is a famous guqin performer, educator and composer. This is a video of our interview with him.
22.3.12
Video Interview: "Great Masters of Chinese Music" - Wang Guotong (王國潼)
Here is the video of our interview with Mr Wang Guotong.
"Great Masters of Chinese Music" - Wang Guotong (王國潼)
Mr Wang Guotong is a musician with an illustrious career. He has devoted more than 50 years of his career to the development of the erhu, erhu music and performance, as well as to the education of traditional Chinese music.
We had the opportunity to talk with him about his music, and his life with the erhu.
Famous for his utilisation of the spiccato bowing technique, we were curious as to how he came up with this technique on the erhu when predecessors never had such a technique and some were in fact quite opposed to him introducing such a technique to the erhu.
"In the late 50s when I was still a student, there were not many technical studies for the erhu. So I took etudes and studies from western instruments such as the violin and cello and practiced them on the erhu. They had many passages requiring fast spiccato bowing and as I practiced and experimented, the spiccato bowing for the erhu slowly developed. It was a natural process."
Talking about his collaboration with the composer Liu Wenjin (劉文金) on the Sanmen Gorge Capriccio (三門峽暢想曲), Mr Wang recalls that there were many fast passages inside the piece that naturally called for the spiccato bowing. However, this was perhaps the first time such a technique was used in an erhu composition and many people could not accept it. He was hence faced with plenty of criticisms that going along such a path, developing these new techniques, he was bringing the erhu into a suicidal path. On hindsight however, we have plenty more other types of techniques now that are even more demanding and people are playing entire pieces like "Carmen" on the erhu. New techniques while they may not be entirely suitable for the erhu, does provide a very good push to spur further improvements and development in erhu playing techniques. Mr Wang's stance now is hence that while it is important to constantly develop new and improved techniques for the erhu, we should still always remember the traditional things. Being able to play fast virtuosic passages must not come at the expense of not being able to play slow and expressive and traditional passages well.
In addition to being a performer, Mr Wang has also worked with instrument-maker Man Ruixing (滿瑞興) to create new specifications for the erhu to improve the sound production and quality.
"The instrument I am going to use for "Erquan" (二泉映月) in this concert will be a "didiao cuxian erhu" (低調粗弦二胡). There are two different schools in folk erhu, the "xixian erhu school" (細弦二胡流派) and the "cuxian erhu school" (粗弦二胡流派). Liu Tianhua (劉天華) belongs to the former while Ah Bing (阿炳) to the latter. The "cuxian" erhu is much used in the operas of the Jiang nan (江南) area as an accompanying instrument. The tuning is a fifth lower than that of the "xixian" erhu. Using such an instrument to play pieces such as Ah Bing's "erquan" will much better bring out the anguish and despondent tone of the music."
Mr Wang started collaborating with Mr Man Ruixing in the 70s in the development of the instrument construction. They started from the shape of the zhonghu sound box and slowly reduced the size until the specifications for the best sound was found and that became a fixed dimension for erhu construction. They had wanted to apply for a patent for these specifications but an accident made him rethink his priorities.
During the period of recuperation from his traffic accident, Mr Wang spent a lot of time thinking. He realised that in applying for a patent for the erhu specifications, he might get monetary rewards when people assume his erhu specifications. However, there might be many others who will modify the specifications just a little, so as not have to pay for the patent. But it will defeat the purpose of them experimenting and finding the best specifications for the erhu if no one is going to use it. Hence he decided not to go ahead in applying for a patent for the erhu specifications and this specification is still what many erhu makers are following now.
Mr Wang has also written many compositions for the erhu. It seems like many performers of his generation were also prolific composers of their own instrument whereas most performers nowadays do not write their own music. We were curious at this difference in attitudes and asked Mr Wang to comment on it.
"The popularisation of an instrument is dependent to a large part, on it's compositions. Take the erhu for example. Before Liu Tianhua (劉天華), it was largely an instrument used in accompaniment. Without his 10 erhu pieces, the erhu will still be accompanying operas now."
Although there have been more and more composers writing for the erhu now, Mr Wang feels that simply depending on the composers alone is not enough. After all, performers are the ones who know their instruments best; where the best sound will come from, what techniques to best portray the music the composer wants. This is very common in the Western music scene as well. Composers like Liszt and Paganini are themselves virtuosos on their own instruments. Ah Bing himself was also a performer and he took the melodies he knew well and developed them into the pieces we know so well today.
Mr Wang believes that it is also helpful to collaborate with composers in their compositional process. It not only helps the composers develop better ways to write for the instrument, it also helped him in refining his own compositional techniques.
With plenty of composers writing very avant garde pieces now, Mr Wang has the stance that art should be all-encompassing. The more types of compositions there are, the better it is for the music scene. Good music will withstand the test of time.
Mr Wang has devoted his entire life to the performance, teaching, writing and development for the erhu. His passion for music and for the erhu stems from his deep love for the erhu. He believes that since a person's life is limited, he should make the best of his time and devote his entire energies into doing the best he can for the area he is passionate in.
Finally, Chinese Music has undergone great changes and development over the past 50-60 years and Mr Wang has seen the development and improvement of the erhu over the years. He feels that a large part of the development of an instrument or a type of music is not merely dependent on the professionals playing it, or the students and teachers in the conservatories, but more so in the population. It is the people who provide the greatest impetus for growth and development of music.
Here is the video of our interview.
Famous for his utilisation of the spiccato bowing technique, we were curious as to how he came up with this technique on the erhu when predecessors never had such a technique and some were in fact quite opposed to him introducing such a technique to the erhu.
"In the late 50s when I was still a student, there were not many technical studies for the erhu. So I took etudes and studies from western instruments such as the violin and cello and practiced them on the erhu. They had many passages requiring fast spiccato bowing and as I practiced and experimented, the spiccato bowing for the erhu slowly developed. It was a natural process."
Talking about his collaboration with the composer Liu Wenjin (劉文金) on the Sanmen Gorge Capriccio (三門峽暢想曲), Mr Wang recalls that there were many fast passages inside the piece that naturally called for the spiccato bowing. However, this was perhaps the first time such a technique was used in an erhu composition and many people could not accept it. He was hence faced with plenty of criticisms that going along such a path, developing these new techniques, he was bringing the erhu into a suicidal path. On hindsight however, we have plenty more other types of techniques now that are even more demanding and people are playing entire pieces like "Carmen" on the erhu. New techniques while they may not be entirely suitable for the erhu, does provide a very good push to spur further improvements and development in erhu playing techniques. Mr Wang's stance now is hence that while it is important to constantly develop new and improved techniques for the erhu, we should still always remember the traditional things. Being able to play fast virtuosic passages must not come at the expense of not being able to play slow and expressive and traditional passages well.
In addition to being a performer, Mr Wang has also worked with instrument-maker Man Ruixing (滿瑞興) to create new specifications for the erhu to improve the sound production and quality.
"The instrument I am going to use for "Erquan" (二泉映月) in this concert will be a "didiao cuxian erhu" (低調粗弦二胡). There are two different schools in folk erhu, the "xixian erhu school" (細弦二胡流派) and the "cuxian erhu school" (粗弦二胡流派). Liu Tianhua (劉天華) belongs to the former while Ah Bing (阿炳) to the latter. The "cuxian" erhu is much used in the operas of the Jiang nan (江南) area as an accompanying instrument. The tuning is a fifth lower than that of the "xixian" erhu. Using such an instrument to play pieces such as Ah Bing's "erquan" will much better bring out the anguish and despondent tone of the music."
Mr Wang started collaborating with Mr Man Ruixing in the 70s in the development of the instrument construction. They started from the shape of the zhonghu sound box and slowly reduced the size until the specifications for the best sound was found and that became a fixed dimension for erhu construction. They had wanted to apply for a patent for these specifications but an accident made him rethink his priorities.
During the period of recuperation from his traffic accident, Mr Wang spent a lot of time thinking. He realised that in applying for a patent for the erhu specifications, he might get monetary rewards when people assume his erhu specifications. However, there might be many others who will modify the specifications just a little, so as not have to pay for the patent. But it will defeat the purpose of them experimenting and finding the best specifications for the erhu if no one is going to use it. Hence he decided not to go ahead in applying for a patent for the erhu specifications and this specification is still what many erhu makers are following now.
Mr Wang has also written many compositions for the erhu. It seems like many performers of his generation were also prolific composers of their own instrument whereas most performers nowadays do not write their own music. We were curious at this difference in attitudes and asked Mr Wang to comment on it.
"The popularisation of an instrument is dependent to a large part, on it's compositions. Take the erhu for example. Before Liu Tianhua (劉天華), it was largely an instrument used in accompaniment. Without his 10 erhu pieces, the erhu will still be accompanying operas now."
Although there have been more and more composers writing for the erhu now, Mr Wang feels that simply depending on the composers alone is not enough. After all, performers are the ones who know their instruments best; where the best sound will come from, what techniques to best portray the music the composer wants. This is very common in the Western music scene as well. Composers like Liszt and Paganini are themselves virtuosos on their own instruments. Ah Bing himself was also a performer and he took the melodies he knew well and developed them into the pieces we know so well today.
Mr Wang believes that it is also helpful to collaborate with composers in their compositional process. It not only helps the composers develop better ways to write for the instrument, it also helped him in refining his own compositional techniques.
With plenty of composers writing very avant garde pieces now, Mr Wang has the stance that art should be all-encompassing. The more types of compositions there are, the better it is for the music scene. Good music will withstand the test of time.
Mr Wang has devoted his entire life to the performance, teaching, writing and development for the erhu. His passion for music and for the erhu stems from his deep love for the erhu. He believes that since a person's life is limited, he should make the best of his time and devote his entire energies into doing the best he can for the area he is passionate in.
Finally, Chinese Music has undergone great changes and development over the past 50-60 years and Mr Wang has seen the development and improvement of the erhu over the years. He feels that a large part of the development of an instrument or a type of music is not merely dependent on the professionals playing it, or the students and teachers in the conservatories, but more so in the population. It is the people who provide the greatest impetus for growth and development of music.
Here is the video of our interview.
21.3.12
9.2.12
Mr Lim Yau's advice on pursuing a career in music
Mr Lim Yau's answer to the question on the advice would he give to someone wanting to pursue a career in music.
8.2.12
Interview with Mr Lim Yau Part 2
Here's the rest of the interview with Mr Lim Yau.
You can read the first part of the interview here.
Qn: When you are conducting especially new music, you might meet certain things that you are not so familiar with or you don't know what to do for certain parts, how do you approach such instances?
Ans: I'll ask. Nowadays the communication is so much easier. I remember in the 1980s when I started doing this, when the composers were not in town, or hasn't arrived yet, you need to communicate much earlier, especially notation. Some composers are very thorough, they know that you wouldn't have any idea what it is, what are those signs. And they've put full of notes there to explain to you how to play these notations. But others, they are not so thoughtful, they think that everybody can read their minds and that's where you have to communicate much earlier to find out. And sometimes it's not easy just by writing. It's best that you call this person directly, to find out how to play these passages. There are standard modern or avant-garde notation guidance periodically, like 1974 or 1990, but in this day and age, the composers' possibilities are so wide that sometimes they write something, certain notation, that you really don't know what it is like. So like this time for example, we also encounter some, like the crescendo diminuendo signs which are just completely like a mess of lines, until she explained, we also don't know what it is.
Qn: In a performance, one of the main aims is to get the audience to appreciate the music and enjoy the music, so especially for contemporary performances, how do you make sure the audience understands and enjoy the music?
Ans: We were lucky! I thought the audience size last night was not too small. I remember in 1983, one or two years after I came back from my studies from the Royal College of Music, I did a concert of works by Leong Yoon Pin, Phoon Yew Tien, and Bernard Tan. The concert was called the "New Music Forum", it was at the old Victoria Concert Hall, then it was very new. The seating capacity was something like 800, we had about 200 in the audience. So if that is any number for you to guage, actually, we were rather encouraged by that, thinking that wow, 200 people is not bad. 200 audience size is not bad. The New Music Forum went on three times and each time there is an increase of audience size. You cannot ensure that they will enjoy it, but you should probably prepare them and urge them to listen to what they are about to listen to, with a very open mind. I didn't manage to hear what Jean said to the audience, but that is certainly needed, to have either the composer or the composer and the performer or just the performer to bridge the gap. Talk briefly about the piece. That hopefully will relax the audience, or prepare them to what we're about to give them. Open-mindedness is important. Of course, the audience either were there because they were asked to go there, or they want to avoid the rush hour so they don't mind sitting there, or purely curious about it. Of course, we hope that the entire audience are a curious audience and that would be fantastic because that's how performing arts or arts in general should hope to reach. If everybody is like a very traditional SSO audience, then that's very hard. They only go to the concert when they see the poster of the solo appear in HMV. If HMV does not have this poster, they will not go. And that does not go down well for the future of art. We should have constantly, an ever enlarging audience size that is curious, I don't know who Jean Foo is, it looks interesting, and I'm going to go there to listen to it. Because through that open-mindedness, you are rewarded with certain provocation of your own creativity. You actually will leave the concert with a more stimulated mind. And I think this is what we really need, especially in Singapore.
Qn: There is quite a big difference in the aesthetic views of traditional music and contemporary music. You've conducted both. How do you approach these two very different aesthetic views and approach the music?
Ans: Actually, I approach them the same way. Either it is very well organized sound, or it seems like sounds that are created at random. There is bound to be some form and structure, even structure-less itself is a structure. And from there you have to then measure them by the period they were produced. Because you then associate the historical aspects, the social, or even the political approach to it, and then from there you merge your knowledge of that period and then you form a concept and then you perform it. So for me, it's the same. You pack, like the composer the eight minutes or the thirty minutes with a planned sound. And you have to be able to read what he has planned, have it in your mind, and encourage that eight minutes or thirty minutes out of that ensemble you are facing. And if you succeeded in that, then the experience is a worthwhile one.
Qn: Being in the music scene as a professional for more than thirty years, what is the greatest joy you derive from music?
Ans: I don't have to be conducting it to feel the joy. Of course if you are part of it and when in the very rare occasions when you feel that you have grasped the essense of the piece of music, that is a wonderful moment. It doesn't happen always though, there are so many concerts you give, after you walk to the backstage, you really don't wish to talk about it. But in the very few moments when you feel that it really went the way it ought to be, the way the performance, the performer and your understanding of it and your guidance of it really makes the whole performance sound right, you probably feel that you are in the presence of God. Very rare moments. I have no religion, but when that moment hits you, you can't help but feel rather religious.
Qn: Having seen and experienced the changing musical landscape of the past few decades, do you have any advice to give to the younger generation who wish to pursue the musical career?
Ans: Well, I will judt quote from my very illustrious colleague, Leonard Bernstein. He has said in one of his interviews that "if you ask yourself, should I be a professional musician, then you better don't be." And the reason is because you asked. You know what it means right? It's hard work. It must be something that you really want to, believe in it and it's the only thing you want to do. Then you will find that when you encounter problems, you will not feel so disappointed. If there is any advice for young people, two things. One is again, never regret it. And the second thing is, there is no shortcut. You need to spend time. With your instrument. You need to spend time writing if you are a composer. Just like a writer. You must have the discipline to say everyday I sit down and write two thousand words. Everyday. And a performer too. You need to have the discipline of wanting to practice on a daily basis. Because there is really no shortcuts.
Qn: What do you think about the music scene in Singapore? And Singapore music? Do you think that there is or there can be Singapore music?
Ans: Of course, there can be Singapore music. The question is, well, it's very much similar to America, to Australia, they are all immigrant societies. And it will take time. Something that you cannot rush. And something that you cannot hope to be artificially assembled. I ever asked Leong Yoon Pin, what do you think? What is Singapore music? He stared at me and he said, I'm a Singaporean, I compose in Singapore, this is Singapore music. And I think he is right. 這個東西不能夠強求的。(This thing cannot be forced.) You go ahead and do, because you breathe the Singapore air, you speak with a Singapore accent, and that is Singapore music. But over the course of time, of course it will transform itself. And I think it's less important to define what is Singapore music, but have the confidence in writing music. That is more important. We have passed the very very early stage of wanting to artificially create the Singapore culture. We are now much more confident as a nation. And I think nobody is talking about the rojak type of man-made culture. As long as we have the opportunity and the government support, allowing the 百花齊放, one day, the real Singapore culture and Singapore music will emerge. It's going to take time. Look at America, and look at Australia. It's probably still finding its way. But America at least they could claim there was a Copland, and that's the older generation, and now they have the Steve Reich, they have John Adams, Philip Glass, they are well and truly American music. Ya, one day, just be patient. And keep doing a lot of Jean Foo type of concerts. I think one day it will come.
You can read the first part of the interview here.
Qn: When you are conducting especially new music, you might meet certain things that you are not so familiar with or you don't know what to do for certain parts, how do you approach such instances?
Ans: I'll ask. Nowadays the communication is so much easier. I remember in the 1980s when I started doing this, when the composers were not in town, or hasn't arrived yet, you need to communicate much earlier, especially notation. Some composers are very thorough, they know that you wouldn't have any idea what it is, what are those signs. And they've put full of notes there to explain to you how to play these notations. But others, they are not so thoughtful, they think that everybody can read their minds and that's where you have to communicate much earlier to find out. And sometimes it's not easy just by writing. It's best that you call this person directly, to find out how to play these passages. There are standard modern or avant-garde notation guidance periodically, like 1974 or 1990, but in this day and age, the composers' possibilities are so wide that sometimes they write something, certain notation, that you really don't know what it is like. So like this time for example, we also encounter some, like the crescendo diminuendo signs which are just completely like a mess of lines, until she explained, we also don't know what it is.
Qn: In a performance, one of the main aims is to get the audience to appreciate the music and enjoy the music, so especially for contemporary performances, how do you make sure the audience understands and enjoy the music?
Ans: We were lucky! I thought the audience size last night was not too small. I remember in 1983, one or two years after I came back from my studies from the Royal College of Music, I did a concert of works by Leong Yoon Pin, Phoon Yew Tien, and Bernard Tan. The concert was called the "New Music Forum", it was at the old Victoria Concert Hall, then it was very new. The seating capacity was something like 800, we had about 200 in the audience. So if that is any number for you to guage, actually, we were rather encouraged by that, thinking that wow, 200 people is not bad. 200 audience size is not bad. The New Music Forum went on three times and each time there is an increase of audience size. You cannot ensure that they will enjoy it, but you should probably prepare them and urge them to listen to what they are about to listen to, with a very open mind. I didn't manage to hear what Jean said to the audience, but that is certainly needed, to have either the composer or the composer and the performer or just the performer to bridge the gap. Talk briefly about the piece. That hopefully will relax the audience, or prepare them to what we're about to give them. Open-mindedness is important. Of course, the audience either were there because they were asked to go there, or they want to avoid the rush hour so they don't mind sitting there, or purely curious about it. Of course, we hope that the entire audience are a curious audience and that would be fantastic because that's how performing arts or arts in general should hope to reach. If everybody is like a very traditional SSO audience, then that's very hard. They only go to the concert when they see the poster of the solo appear in HMV. If HMV does not have this poster, they will not go. And that does not go down well for the future of art. We should have constantly, an ever enlarging audience size that is curious, I don't know who Jean Foo is, it looks interesting, and I'm going to go there to listen to it. Because through that open-mindedness, you are rewarded with certain provocation of your own creativity. You actually will leave the concert with a more stimulated mind. And I think this is what we really need, especially in Singapore.
Qn: There is quite a big difference in the aesthetic views of traditional music and contemporary music. You've conducted both. How do you approach these two very different aesthetic views and approach the music?
Ans: Actually, I approach them the same way. Either it is very well organized sound, or it seems like sounds that are created at random. There is bound to be some form and structure, even structure-less itself is a structure. And from there you have to then measure them by the period they were produced. Because you then associate the historical aspects, the social, or even the political approach to it, and then from there you merge your knowledge of that period and then you form a concept and then you perform it. So for me, it's the same. You pack, like the composer the eight minutes or the thirty minutes with a planned sound. And you have to be able to read what he has planned, have it in your mind, and encourage that eight minutes or thirty minutes out of that ensemble you are facing. And if you succeeded in that, then the experience is a worthwhile one.
Qn: Being in the music scene as a professional for more than thirty years, what is the greatest joy you derive from music?
Ans: I don't have to be conducting it to feel the joy. Of course if you are part of it and when in the very rare occasions when you feel that you have grasped the essense of the piece of music, that is a wonderful moment. It doesn't happen always though, there are so many concerts you give, after you walk to the backstage, you really don't wish to talk about it. But in the very few moments when you feel that it really went the way it ought to be, the way the performance, the performer and your understanding of it and your guidance of it really makes the whole performance sound right, you probably feel that you are in the presence of God. Very rare moments. I have no religion, but when that moment hits you, you can't help but feel rather religious.
Qn: Having seen and experienced the changing musical landscape of the past few decades, do you have any advice to give to the younger generation who wish to pursue the musical career?
Ans: Well, I will judt quote from my very illustrious colleague, Leonard Bernstein. He has said in one of his interviews that "if you ask yourself, should I be a professional musician, then you better don't be." And the reason is because you asked. You know what it means right? It's hard work. It must be something that you really want to, believe in it and it's the only thing you want to do. Then you will find that when you encounter problems, you will not feel so disappointed. If there is any advice for young people, two things. One is again, never regret it. And the second thing is, there is no shortcut. You need to spend time. With your instrument. You need to spend time writing if you are a composer. Just like a writer. You must have the discipline to say everyday I sit down and write two thousand words. Everyday. And a performer too. You need to have the discipline of wanting to practice on a daily basis. Because there is really no shortcuts.
Qn: What do you think about the music scene in Singapore? And Singapore music? Do you think that there is or there can be Singapore music?
Ans: Of course, there can be Singapore music. The question is, well, it's very much similar to America, to Australia, they are all immigrant societies. And it will take time. Something that you cannot rush. And something that you cannot hope to be artificially assembled. I ever asked Leong Yoon Pin, what do you think? What is Singapore music? He stared at me and he said, I'm a Singaporean, I compose in Singapore, this is Singapore music. And I think he is right. 這個東西不能夠強求的。(This thing cannot be forced.) You go ahead and do, because you breathe the Singapore air, you speak with a Singapore accent, and that is Singapore music. But over the course of time, of course it will transform itself. And I think it's less important to define what is Singapore music, but have the confidence in writing music. That is more important. We have passed the very very early stage of wanting to artificially create the Singapore culture. We are now much more confident as a nation. And I think nobody is talking about the rojak type of man-made culture. As long as we have the opportunity and the government support, allowing the 百花齊放, one day, the real Singapore culture and Singapore music will emerge. It's going to take time. Look at America, and look at Australia. It's probably still finding its way. But America at least they could claim there was a Copland, and that's the older generation, and now they have the Steve Reich, they have John Adams, Philip Glass, they are well and truly American music. Ya, one day, just be patient. And keep doing a lot of Jean Foo type of concerts. I think one day it will come.
7.2.12
Interview with Mr Lim Yau
We were very privileged to have Mr Lim Yau as conductor for the recital of Miss Jean Y. Foo's compositions and we are honoured to have a chance to interview him after the concert. Here is a transcript of the first part of the interview.
Qn: It's your second time conducting a Chinese ensemble.
Ans: Yes that's right. First time was with SCO, also in the chamber ensemble setting. It was during the SARS period when the guest conductor from Beijing was cancelled and the then GM was a very close friend of mine. He knew that I would not conduct Chinese Orchestra, simply because I do not know enough to conduct. There are two types of music I don't conduct, Chinese music, Chinese orchestral music, and symphonic band. Simply because well, I just don't think there is enough good music in symphonic band music, and Chinese music I feel, you need more in depth knowledge. But that particular concert was a modern work programme. I think, as far as I can remember, Chen Yi I think, maybe some Ye Xiao Gang, maybe Tan Dun. So I looked at the scores, it's actually not far from Chen Yi or Tan Dun writing for Western Symphony Orchestras, and that I'm familiar with, so I agreed, just to help my friend out, because either they cancel the concert or, you know, so I did it. It was the first time, and this is the second time.
Qn: And you mentioned you conducted an erhu concerto too?
Ans: Oh actually that, well, over my years with the SSO, I've had my fair share of doing Chinese instrumental concertos with Western Symphony Orchestras. Now that was the pre-SCO days, when SCO wasn't in its present form. Somehow the SSO artistic management seem to think that it is their responsibility to also embrace Chinese music. So yes, I have done Zhang Yan (張燕) Double Guzheng Concerto (雙箏協奏曲), I have done a suona concerto, I have done Ding Lu Feng (丁魯峰), I have done Jiang Jian Hua (姜建華). I've recorded with NAXOS CD with Li Min Xiong (李民雄) the percussionist. So that sort of thing with the symphony orchestra.
Qn: So how do you think conducting these Chinese music is different from the other things that you conduct?
Ans: It's different, I cannot really pinpoint. All I know is I am extremely conscious about intonation. There was once I did a yang ban xi zu qu (樣板戲組曲), can't remember now, "Bai Mao Nu" (白毛女)? There was a jinghu (京胡), and jinghu is never in tune, in the Western sense! In its own right, it's got to be "not in tune" to sound right! Oh, and I did with Yu Shun Fa (俞順發), actually we recorded two CDs, but unreleased, simply because the recording company had some problems and in the end was not released. So it's always, just the intonation part of it, it's either you accept it and say that since you accepted the format of ethnic instruments and symphony orchestra's tuning, you accept the combination of it, then you have to take it on. Of course, these sort of thing if you don't pay too much attention, it's not going to bother you. I have the suona experience which was very unique, because in those days in the 1980s, I can't really remember the suona solo's name now, they're all from China, but I seem to remember my colleagues in the SSO, those who came from China, they did not respect this player very much, "他是那種民間藝人" (he's just a street artist), but I suppose it is that, that brings out the flavour. And he was, I don't think he reads music, I don't think he follows what was on the score, because during the concert, I accidentally flipped one more page. Then I looked at it, no, he was not actually playing what was on the page, and it comes to a fermata, so I cut of the orchestra, and of course the orchestra was shocked, and he was shocked too. And I realised, ok, something must be wrong, I just flipped through and realised that ok, I've flipped one more page, so I go on again, I gave upbeat again and I go on, and he started again. It doesn't disturb him a bit and the orchestra was alert, as if nothing has happened. So sometimes I think, is it useful to read music? So those were my experience.
Qn: From a conductor's point of view of yesterday's concert, how do you find the composer's approach towards contemporary Chinese music?
Ans: Interestingly, I was rather excited about the whole programme by the time she came, after she managed to answer all the questions that we have. I think it was exciting because she has something to say in each of the three pieces. They are not always the same, what she wants to express. She has sufficient knowledge of how the instruments will sound, except that the notational purposes was not too obvious to us all. I'm not sure if you should classify them as contemporary Chinese music; I actually look at it from the other way round, it is a living composer, using a new set of instruments to achieve a soundscape, to weave a soundscape for herself, and that happens to be by using a Chinese music ensemble. Of course I think the aesthetic of it all, up to a point, is based on Chinese music, or the foundations of the aesthetics of Chinese music. She mentioned time and again about microtones which also exists in much earlier forms in Chinese music. And I thought the graphic score presented a unique opportunity for Ding Yi to push boundaries. Surely you noticed that each time you play, it was a little bit different. And that was the interesting part. Really, last night's performance, especially on that piece, it was really very good.
Qn: In what sense?
Ans: There is a real sense of performance, you don't have any music. You only have the graphic, and imagination and creativity were demonstrated by just about every player. It's a bigger dimension than in the rehearsals. And of course, she took it as a form of musical theatre, hence the masks and whatnot. Musical theatre is not new. You could even say that it is very traditional, and people like Tan Dun has already employed it and flourished with that concept. But I thought the masks is at once ethnic Chinese and at once international. The masks, the commedia dell'arte of the Italian Renaissance theatre, I thought it was really really good, that Ding Yi has had the far-sight of engaging this programme. I thought Ding Yi was also very generous in offering a young composer to do a concert like this, completely on one composer's work. But in the end I think it really was a win-win situation where the ensemble benefitted by having a bigger dimension of what she is, and I'm sure she will grow out of this experience as to what worked, and what didn't work. In fact I think Ding Yi is to be congratulated. This is probably the first concert of it's kind that is devoted to a single composer, of course I have to qualify this, that I don't know, but I think this probably is the first one.
Qn: It's your second time conducting a Chinese ensemble.
Ans: Yes that's right. First time was with SCO, also in the chamber ensemble setting. It was during the SARS period when the guest conductor from Beijing was cancelled and the then GM was a very close friend of mine. He knew that I would not conduct Chinese Orchestra, simply because I do not know enough to conduct. There are two types of music I don't conduct, Chinese music, Chinese orchestral music, and symphonic band. Simply because well, I just don't think there is enough good music in symphonic band music, and Chinese music I feel, you need more in depth knowledge. But that particular concert was a modern work programme. I think, as far as I can remember, Chen Yi I think, maybe some Ye Xiao Gang, maybe Tan Dun. So I looked at the scores, it's actually not far from Chen Yi or Tan Dun writing for Western Symphony Orchestras, and that I'm familiar with, so I agreed, just to help my friend out, because either they cancel the concert or, you know, so I did it. It was the first time, and this is the second time.
Qn: And you mentioned you conducted an erhu concerto too?
Ans: Oh actually that, well, over my years with the SSO, I've had my fair share of doing Chinese instrumental concertos with Western Symphony Orchestras. Now that was the pre-SCO days, when SCO wasn't in its present form. Somehow the SSO artistic management seem to think that it is their responsibility to also embrace Chinese music. So yes, I have done Zhang Yan (張燕) Double Guzheng Concerto (雙箏協奏曲), I have done a suona concerto, I have done Ding Lu Feng (丁魯峰), I have done Jiang Jian Hua (姜建華). I've recorded with NAXOS CD with Li Min Xiong (李民雄) the percussionist. So that sort of thing with the symphony orchestra.
Qn: So how do you think conducting these Chinese music is different from the other things that you conduct?
Ans: It's different, I cannot really pinpoint. All I know is I am extremely conscious about intonation. There was once I did a yang ban xi zu qu (樣板戲組曲), can't remember now, "Bai Mao Nu" (白毛女)? There was a jinghu (京胡), and jinghu is never in tune, in the Western sense! In its own right, it's got to be "not in tune" to sound right! Oh, and I did with Yu Shun Fa (俞順發), actually we recorded two CDs, but unreleased, simply because the recording company had some problems and in the end was not released. So it's always, just the intonation part of it, it's either you accept it and say that since you accepted the format of ethnic instruments and symphony orchestra's tuning, you accept the combination of it, then you have to take it on. Of course, these sort of thing if you don't pay too much attention, it's not going to bother you. I have the suona experience which was very unique, because in those days in the 1980s, I can't really remember the suona solo's name now, they're all from China, but I seem to remember my colleagues in the SSO, those who came from China, they did not respect this player very much, "他是那種民間藝人" (he's just a street artist), but I suppose it is that, that brings out the flavour. And he was, I don't think he reads music, I don't think he follows what was on the score, because during the concert, I accidentally flipped one more page. Then I looked at it, no, he was not actually playing what was on the page, and it comes to a fermata, so I cut of the orchestra, and of course the orchestra was shocked, and he was shocked too. And I realised, ok, something must be wrong, I just flipped through and realised that ok, I've flipped one more page, so I go on again, I gave upbeat again and I go on, and he started again. It doesn't disturb him a bit and the orchestra was alert, as if nothing has happened. So sometimes I think, is it useful to read music? So those were my experience.
Qn: From a conductor's point of view of yesterday's concert, how do you find the composer's approach towards contemporary Chinese music?
Ans: Interestingly, I was rather excited about the whole programme by the time she came, after she managed to answer all the questions that we have. I think it was exciting because she has something to say in each of the three pieces. They are not always the same, what she wants to express. She has sufficient knowledge of how the instruments will sound, except that the notational purposes was not too obvious to us all. I'm not sure if you should classify them as contemporary Chinese music; I actually look at it from the other way round, it is a living composer, using a new set of instruments to achieve a soundscape, to weave a soundscape for herself, and that happens to be by using a Chinese music ensemble. Of course I think the aesthetic of it all, up to a point, is based on Chinese music, or the foundations of the aesthetics of Chinese music. She mentioned time and again about microtones which also exists in much earlier forms in Chinese music. And I thought the graphic score presented a unique opportunity for Ding Yi to push boundaries. Surely you noticed that each time you play, it was a little bit different. And that was the interesting part. Really, last night's performance, especially on that piece, it was really very good.
Qn: In what sense?
Ans: There is a real sense of performance, you don't have any music. You only have the graphic, and imagination and creativity were demonstrated by just about every player. It's a bigger dimension than in the rehearsals. And of course, she took it as a form of musical theatre, hence the masks and whatnot. Musical theatre is not new. You could even say that it is very traditional, and people like Tan Dun has already employed it and flourished with that concept. But I thought the masks is at once ethnic Chinese and at once international. The masks, the commedia dell'arte of the Italian Renaissance theatre, I thought it was really really good, that Ding Yi has had the far-sight of engaging this programme. I thought Ding Yi was also very generous in offering a young composer to do a concert like this, completely on one composer's work. But in the end I think it really was a win-win situation where the ensemble benefitted by having a bigger dimension of what she is, and I'm sure she will grow out of this experience as to what worked, and what didn't work. In fact I think Ding Yi is to be congratulated. This is probably the first concert of it's kind that is devoted to a single composer, of course I have to qualify this, that I don't know, but I think this probably is the first one.
Qn: Do you have any challenges as a conductor in conducting this set of pieces?
Ans: I have done quite a lot of new works, the reward of doing first performance of a work is that you see it slowly taking shape. And if the composer is around, through the rehearsals and discussions, you get to sometimes, be involved in making useful suggestions. But of course sometimes, that is not welcome, and that would be, in that sense, also pose as a challenge. Fortunately, Jean is very very flexible, so the whole process, the whole preparation period was quite easy in a sense. I had problems actually with balance, and that was to a certain extent, resolved by shifting the huqin to my right. The other challenges of course, they will always be there anyway, whether you do a modern work, a traditional work, standard repertoire. Intonation will always be a problem, even with very very good professional ensembles. We have had, even up to the performance, we were challenged by the ability to count. I believe the last piece was in a big mess, but a performance is a performance, things like that happen. You didn't realise that it will happen. Sometimes it is like suddenly you know that this is a very difficult corner to turn, and when somebody didn't turn right, or you didn't manage to help the turning, then of course the ensemble will be wrecked. Last night was, you didn't expect it, suddenly something happened. Last night, it was not messy because of the nature of the work, the texture, the layering itself, it is just that it was not accurate.
The rest of the interview has been fully transcribed and can be viewed here.
The rest of the interview has been fully transcribed and can be viewed here.
4.2.12
Interview with Jean Y. Foo
Jean Y. Foo is a Singaporean-born Chinese-American composer and we are happy to interview her in conjunction with the coming recital of her works.
This is the transcript of our interview with her.
Qn: What difference do you see composing contemporary Chinese music versus composing a piece of contemporary music for Western instruments? For instance, do you see the need to incorporate certain Chinese elements like aesthetics or folk-derived sources or certain Chinese structural concepts?
Ans: No, other than the instruments, technically there shouldn't be any difference writing Western or Chinese music because it's just a matter of how you want to express your musical form. So the only difference is only understanding how each instrument operates and you try to write to the best effect of that instrument. But musically, there is no need to be intentional in using any specific elements. You have a lot of Western pieces using Chinese elements and Chinese instrumental pieces using Western elements but there is no need to demarcate that. Because for music, there shouldn't be any limitations and to put yourself in a certain cultural frame, I feel that that is a limit.
Qn: I feel that there is a fundamental difference in the way people who play Chinese music and the way people who play Western music thinks. But you say there is no difference in the way you write for them?
Ans: Every musician, even if you have two Western musicians, they would play different from each other. So the difference comes from the cultural understanding, for example Western music, the way that people understand timing, rhythm, is going to be different from how Chinese instrumentalists understand traditional rhythms. So in that sense, the interpretation of rhythm for traditional expressions will be different. But for contemporary music, because there is so much space for you to just push the boundaries and go beyond the boundaries that you can just break all these boundaries. It becomes like a whole melting pot.
Qn: What would you say your style of writing is? What are the salient things you would like the audience to think of your music as having?
Ans: For me as a composer, I think it is important to be able to benchmark new performance techniques and expressions, meaning it's our job to set new standards that become mainstream. So that would include performance techniques, aesthetics, expression and form, and all these can come out from instrumental techniques itself or various kinds of compositional techniques. So for me, when I write something, there is always an intention, for me to think about how this piece is going to be able to influence or take us to the next level. So it's not just like a simple expression of happiness or sadness or anything. It really has to bring a lot of conceptual and philosophical ideas.
Qn: So would you say that every new piece that you write, you want to do something different? So that this is what is going to happen in every piece, something different, something that pushes the boundaries?
Ans: Well, different but not for the sake of being different. It has to be different for the musical intent. If for example, you are writing a hundred repeated notes, there has to be a soecific intent of why the composer is writing a hundred repeated notes and not two or five or a thousand.
Qn: Do you have any specific compositional philosophies or aesthetic views that you try to put in your compositions?
Ans: Yes, for me it feels like in the traditional sense, musicians understand music with certain traditional parameters, for example melody, rhythm, harmony. But in the way I understand music, there is just so much more dimensions to musical parameters, so for myself, that would include performance gestures, speed, distance, aesthetics and things like that. So it goes beyond. Taking other kinds of parameters into consideration in building up a musical form instead of just relying on melody or rhythm or harmony.
Qn: As you mentioned, you consider the theatrical part of the performance very important as well, so what happens when your music is recorded and people cannot see certain parts of the performance? So does it mean these pieces have to always be performed live or be a video recording? Can it be appreciated without the visual element?
Ans: It can be appreciated, but it is going to be appreciated in a different context. So you will miss out on the visual element but the audio element itself will also surface in a different interpretation. So whether or not there will be a missing element, that you can give it to the audience to decide, because it has to work both ways for me, like musicians with audience being seen, and then without the visual element. Because the performance gestures, sometimes they also affect the way the sound is being produced, or they affect the way a note is being expressed, and that can be heard instead of just being viewed.
Qn: This collection of compositions, can we call it a suite?
Ans: It's not exactly a suite. The entire concert itself, when I first programmed the concert, is based on a theme of "mei hua san nong" (梅花三弄).
Qn: Why do you choose "mei hua san nong" among other ancient pieces?
Ans: It's a long story but I'll try to make it short. I've been working with Professor Chen for some time, working on "mei hua san nong" and that piece fits really well in terms of borrowing other kinds of instrumental aesthetics and it just so happens that this time round, it's like a tribute to one of the greatest Chinese painters who paints primarily plum flowers and his painting of plum flowers is so different from other kinds of plum flower paintings is that there is always the impression of a dragon within it. So his paintings are all national treasures and there is no way you can take them out, so we will show some in the concert through powerpoint and it just fits perfectly with the material that we are working on. So basically the theme of "mei hua san nong" I've been using it for about three years. The first time was just a piece on the solo double bass and the second time was for a choir and so since it's like a third variation, in a way it just came in all very nicely.
Qn: So how do the pieces relate to one another? Is there a particular feature or theme that threads and strings everything together?
Ans: Yes, and no. I would say yes because it is based on the theme of "mei hua san nong". Not only the theme but the elements for example the note D and the fifth interval. You will be able to hear that in all the pieces. And when we conceptualised the programme, in terms of the order of the pieces, we had big pieces, small pieces, medium pieces, but they are all of different characteristics, so you have the percussive effect through "Long Mei" I, II and III. (龍梅 I, II, III) using different sets of cymbals matched with other kinds of ensemble things, you have specific smaller pieces intertwined, just so that there is contrast in the programme, but there is also continuity throughout the entire programme.
Qn: So the theme that strings everything together is the fifth interval, and the D...
Ans: Yes, it's all drawn from those, but on the other hand, for example "mei hua san nong" it's traditional or ancient guqin piece, and the element of noise. A sound is made up of the noise and the pitch so in guqin you would see that people have a lot of actions when they play and you can hear the rubbing of the string, the slapping of the fingerboard and things like that. So all these kinds of noise elements, I've used them in the piece, in all the pieces that we have this concert. So that is also something that unifies all the pieces. So noise is also a key parameter in my pieces.
Qn: Because you are writing contemporary music and a lot of things are different, how the audience understands it as compared to traditional music. So what are the things that you would do to let the audience understand you music better, are you concerned that they might understand the "wrong" things or think about the "wrong" things in your pieces?
Ans: The reason why performance gestures are so important in my pieces are also based on my research on ancient and traditional music. Where traditionally, performance gestures and noise form very critical aspects of Chinese music. But these two elements have been under-valued in traditional music - although it is still being expressed but it is not being amplified - so even though the pieces may sound contemporary, but the actual elements in those pieces and the ways of approaching the use of these elements are actually very very ancient. So the parameters of performance gestures and noise, they are all derived from Chinese music and used in a contemporary context. So it may sound or come across as contemporary but the elements used are very very old and they are actually used a lot in Chinese music and these elements have been under-valued and not being emphasised like rhythm and melody and things like that. So this is something I discovered in my research when I was still an undergraduate and in my graduate school and so I'm hoping to use these elements to provide the audience with new perspectives and understanding what Chinese music could be about.
Qn: So as a composer, are you worried that the audience might not get what you want them to get or you just leave it to the audience and similarly, for people who might analyse your music? Because they might think of something else from what you actually intended.
Ans: Yes, that is true. The reason why people might interpret it a different way again might be they didn't understand before how the parameters of noise and the other traditional elements have been used all along that's why they might feel like there is some kind of disconnect, but I wouldn't be overly concerned because I feel that as a composer, a very important thing would be to provide people with perspective, and the value of perspective comes when people understand it in different contexts and think about it in a different context. So even if somebody doesn't totally get the intent, but through being able to be exposed and receive that kind of perspective, they also kind of uncover some kind of hidden emotion or hidden spiritual sense within themselves. So myself, versus other composers, I know there are many composers who would like to focus on this music should express this specific feeling like happiness or sadness or anger, but for me it's more like I would like my music to help the audience uncover hidden kind of emotions that is within themselves.
Qn: Also because every piece has a programmatic title or descriptive title, do you have any background description to go with every piece?
Ans: Not every piece will have one, but ....
Qn: Like "Purple Plum" or "White Plum" how do they come about?
Ans: They are mostly abstract, I would say, in that sense, like "Mei Long" (梅龍) or "Long Mei" (龍梅) they are abstract programming but still again the theme of "mei" (plum) and "long" (dragon) is being reflected as they were being reflected in the paintings of this artist.
Qn: I'm quite interested how is "Golden Plum" being conceptualized?
Ans: So "Golden Plum" is a graphic score. It's using graphic notation. It's my first time writing graphic notation whether it's for Western music or Chinese music or a mix of both musics. I think it's conceptualized based again on performance gestures, and the players are required to interpret, because some of the graphic notation are taken based on fingerings or certain kinds of performance techniques in traditional or contemporary scores, so the performers just see how they want to relate to this gestures and come up with the music themselves.
Qn: So are performers required to draw on or relate to certain melodic gestures from your arrangement of "mei hua san nong" or the "mei long song" during improvisation so as to provide some aural allusion to these pieces and to connect to the plum suite?
Ans: Actually I would say no. The reason I would say no is because the pieces themselves are already very focused on the theme and if we have that even more focused by the performers, it's just going make the music very bland and uninteresting. So I think the beauty of it comes when then performers actually have no knowledge of or limited knowledge of what the compositional intent is, to give that kind of variety and perspective to the music. But it would help if they want to find out more...
Qn: So "Golden Plum" can actually be performed as a stand-alone piece without connection to "Mei Hua San Nong"? Is that right?
Ans: In a way, yes. But the connection would be gestural, the short answer is, yes.
Qn: On what basis is the choice of your twelve notes made, for this piece, because I realise there's repeated notes, in the same register and yet it's not linked to serial technique, right?
Ans: It's not.
Qn: So how do you conceive of the notes, how do you choose which notes?
Ans: So first of all, I actually choose my notes based on the construction of the instruments, so for example D is on a lot of instruments like especially Chinese instruments. It's on an open string, a string that does not need to be pressed in order to produce the pitch. So in the sense it has the quality of, the sound itself, it's rounder and it allows the musicians to be freer to express more in terms of their gestures or their expressions. But also because "Mei Hua San Nong" starts on a D, so that is how I found the match. But a lot of my pieces, you'll see that, whether it's a single note, like a D, it's usually not a straight D, meaning I use a lot of microtones, for example it may be quarter sharp or quarter flat, three quarter sharp, three quarter flat D, just so that there is a colour of D through the textures of the instruments but also the colour of D through pitch.
Qn: So how are the twelve notes (of Golden Plum) chosen?
Ans: There is no specific reason.
Qn: So it's random? Just a choice of random colours?
Ans: Yeah, you can say that. I can't even remember what the notes are.
Qn: Because I just find it very fascinating how come there are actually repeated notes but yet you can perform with any combinations any ordering and any choice of those notes. Then there is no need for repeated notes right?
Ans: I guess that is how the performers come up with their own concept, but in this case, pitch would take a second priority, versus sound colour, versus noise and versus other parameters. So for me, in a lot of my works, pitch is not a main priority. But it's still important enough that it gives the piece certain colour. It's not used in the traditional Western sense where like in serialism or based on specific scales or based on a specific progression and things like that.
Qn: So it's ok if we do not follow exactly? According to the pitches that you provide?
Ans: Well, even if you deviate, it's to provide as a guideline.
Qn: Are there any particular soundscapes that you are looking for, that you conceptualise in your mind, that you hope performers will create that kind of colours?
Ans: I would say not so much but the soundscape is going to be a result of the gestural and the chosen actions. For example if we have a curly line, it could mean many things. It could mean like the pipa is wavering on the fret, or it could be the sanxian just tuning, or it could be like a vibrato on the qudi. So I won't say there is a specific soundscape but I do have an idea of what it would relate to, for example the wavering thing, of how it would relate to the music for example pitch bending or things like that.
Qn: So the piece of music has a lot of chance elements in it?
Ans: There is a lot of chance elements but the performers are required to find the relationship between the transition of one element to another, so for example, they are taking the cue from the pipa player, the pipa player is giving the first hint and they would take it from there and so there is an aspect of relationship.
Qn: There is no doubt an eclectic collection of compositional styles reflected in this collection of pieces, like you have fugue-like arrangement of the "Mei Hua San Nong", and minimalistic approach in "Mei Long Song", "Bai Mei" and then aleatoric elements in "Jin Mei", there are composers who feel that actually the essence of minimalistic and aleatoric approach are actually deeply rooted in traditional Chinese music, like guqin scoring or variation techniques found in "Lao Liu Ban" (老六板). So are there any specific reasons why you picked these styles?
Ans: No, when I compose, I don't actually think like I have to write using this technique or I have to write using Chinese elements. It's just the way I write it. My music is more, actually it's not that aleatoric because you look at the other scores, they may seem like there is a lot of chance elements but it's actually very tightly knitted. We are supposed to perform this element within a specific time-frame and the dynamics are all written out. So I'm not concerned about what style it is or the techniques it is, but it's important for me, a good piece of music is something that the audience can take away with them a specific impression. Even though they might not remember the music, they might not remember the melody, they might not even get the rhythm, they might not know what the harmony is, but they can have an impression of the sonic landscape.
Qn: So the sonic landscape, the soundscape is the biggest thing that you want audience to take away from all your compositions.
Ans: Yes. The ultimate thing is to create the soundscape. They could take off one element, that is fine, but it's in Chinese they would say 一種音樂的精神, that they would remember, but not in the mental way of remembering, like I know that I heard this piece, and the kind of impression that I got from it. You know, you might not know the melody, even I don't know the notes I've written. But there is some kind of a, it's not spiritual but there is some kind of an element in there that you can still remember and you will get a good impression of it. An impression of the soundscape.
Qn: This collection of compositions, can we call it a suite?
Ans: It's not exactly a suite. The entire concert itself, when I first programmed the concert, is based on a theme of "mei hua san nong" (梅花三弄).
Qn: Why do you choose "mei hua san nong" among other ancient pieces?
Ans: It's a long story but I'll try to make it short. I've been working with Professor Chen for some time, working on "mei hua san nong" and that piece fits really well in terms of borrowing other kinds of instrumental aesthetics and it just so happens that this time round, it's like a tribute to one of the greatest Chinese painters who paints primarily plum flowers and his painting of plum flowers is so different from other kinds of plum flower paintings is that there is always the impression of a dragon within it. So his paintings are all national treasures and there is no way you can take them out, so we will show some in the concert through powerpoint and it just fits perfectly with the material that we are working on. So basically the theme of "mei hua san nong" I've been using it for about three years. The first time was just a piece on the solo double bass and the second time was for a choir and so since it's like a third variation, in a way it just came in all very nicely.
Qn: So how do the pieces relate to one another? Is there a particular feature or theme that threads and strings everything together?
Ans: Yes, and no. I would say yes because it is based on the theme of "mei hua san nong". Not only the theme but the elements for example the note D and the fifth interval. You will be able to hear that in all the pieces. And when we conceptualised the programme, in terms of the order of the pieces, we had big pieces, small pieces, medium pieces, but they are all of different characteristics, so you have the percussive effect through "Long Mei" I, II and III. (龍梅 I, II, III) using different sets of cymbals matched with other kinds of ensemble things, you have specific smaller pieces intertwined, just so that there is contrast in the programme, but there is also continuity throughout the entire programme.
Qn: So the theme that strings everything together is the fifth interval, and the D...
Ans: Yes, it's all drawn from those, but on the other hand, for example "mei hua san nong" it's traditional or ancient guqin piece, and the element of noise. A sound is made up of the noise and the pitch so in guqin you would see that people have a lot of actions when they play and you can hear the rubbing of the string, the slapping of the fingerboard and things like that. So all these kinds of noise elements, I've used them in the piece, in all the pieces that we have this concert. So that is also something that unifies all the pieces. So noise is also a key parameter in my pieces.
Qn: Because you are writing contemporary music and a lot of things are different, how the audience understands it as compared to traditional music. So what are the things that you would do to let the audience understand you music better, are you concerned that they might understand the "wrong" things or think about the "wrong" things in your pieces?
Ans: The reason why performance gestures are so important in my pieces are also based on my research on ancient and traditional music. Where traditionally, performance gestures and noise form very critical aspects of Chinese music. But these two elements have been under-valued in traditional music - although it is still being expressed but it is not being amplified - so even though the pieces may sound contemporary, but the actual elements in those pieces and the ways of approaching the use of these elements are actually very very ancient. So the parameters of performance gestures and noise, they are all derived from Chinese music and used in a contemporary context. So it may sound or come across as contemporary but the elements used are very very old and they are actually used a lot in Chinese music and these elements have been under-valued and not being emphasised like rhythm and melody and things like that. So this is something I discovered in my research when I was still an undergraduate and in my graduate school and so I'm hoping to use these elements to provide the audience with new perspectives and understanding what Chinese music could be about.
Qn: So as a composer, are you worried that the audience might not get what you want them to get or you just leave it to the audience and similarly, for people who might analyse your music? Because they might think of something else from what you actually intended.
Ans: Yes, that is true. The reason why people might interpret it a different way again might be they didn't understand before how the parameters of noise and the other traditional elements have been used all along that's why they might feel like there is some kind of disconnect, but I wouldn't be overly concerned because I feel that as a composer, a very important thing would be to provide people with perspective, and the value of perspective comes when people understand it in different contexts and think about it in a different context. So even if somebody doesn't totally get the intent, but through being able to be exposed and receive that kind of perspective, they also kind of uncover some kind of hidden emotion or hidden spiritual sense within themselves. So myself, versus other composers, I know there are many composers who would like to focus on this music should express this specific feeling like happiness or sadness or anger, but for me it's more like I would like my music to help the audience uncover hidden kind of emotions that is within themselves.
Qn: Also because every piece has a programmatic title or descriptive title, do you have any background description to go with every piece?
Ans: Not every piece will have one, but ....
Qn: Like "Purple Plum" or "White Plum" how do they come about?
Ans: They are mostly abstract, I would say, in that sense, like "Mei Long" (梅龍) or "Long Mei" (龍梅) they are abstract programming but still again the theme of "mei" (plum) and "long" (dragon) is being reflected as they were being reflected in the paintings of this artist.
Qn: I'm quite interested how is "Golden Plum" being conceptualized?
Ans: So "Golden Plum" is a graphic score. It's using graphic notation. It's my first time writing graphic notation whether it's for Western music or Chinese music or a mix of both musics. I think it's conceptualized based again on performance gestures, and the players are required to interpret, because some of the graphic notation are taken based on fingerings or certain kinds of performance techniques in traditional or contemporary scores, so the performers just see how they want to relate to this gestures and come up with the music themselves.
Qn: So are performers required to draw on or relate to certain melodic gestures from your arrangement of "mei hua san nong" or the "mei long song" during improvisation so as to provide some aural allusion to these pieces and to connect to the plum suite?
Ans: Actually I would say no. The reason I would say no is because the pieces themselves are already very focused on the theme and if we have that even more focused by the performers, it's just going make the music very bland and uninteresting. So I think the beauty of it comes when then performers actually have no knowledge of or limited knowledge of what the compositional intent is, to give that kind of variety and perspective to the music. But it would help if they want to find out more...
Qn: So "Golden Plum" can actually be performed as a stand-alone piece without connection to "Mei Hua San Nong"? Is that right?
Ans: In a way, yes. But the connection would be gestural, the short answer is, yes.
Qn: On what basis is the choice of your twelve notes made, for this piece, because I realise there's repeated notes, in the same register and yet it's not linked to serial technique, right?
Ans: It's not.
Qn: So how do you conceive of the notes, how do you choose which notes?
Ans: So first of all, I actually choose my notes based on the construction of the instruments, so for example D is on a lot of instruments like especially Chinese instruments. It's on an open string, a string that does not need to be pressed in order to produce the pitch. So in the sense it has the quality of, the sound itself, it's rounder and it allows the musicians to be freer to express more in terms of their gestures or their expressions. But also because "Mei Hua San Nong" starts on a D, so that is how I found the match. But a lot of my pieces, you'll see that, whether it's a single note, like a D, it's usually not a straight D, meaning I use a lot of microtones, for example it may be quarter sharp or quarter flat, three quarter sharp, three quarter flat D, just so that there is a colour of D through the textures of the instruments but also the colour of D through pitch.
Qn: So how are the twelve notes (of Golden Plum) chosen?
Ans: There is no specific reason.
Qn: So it's random? Just a choice of random colours?
Ans: Yeah, you can say that. I can't even remember what the notes are.
Qn: Because I just find it very fascinating how come there are actually repeated notes but yet you can perform with any combinations any ordering and any choice of those notes. Then there is no need for repeated notes right?
Ans: I guess that is how the performers come up with their own concept, but in this case, pitch would take a second priority, versus sound colour, versus noise and versus other parameters. So for me, in a lot of my works, pitch is not a main priority. But it's still important enough that it gives the piece certain colour. It's not used in the traditional Western sense where like in serialism or based on specific scales or based on a specific progression and things like that.
Qn: So it's ok if we do not follow exactly? According to the pitches that you provide?
Ans: Well, even if you deviate, it's to provide as a guideline.
Qn: Are there any particular soundscapes that you are looking for, that you conceptualise in your mind, that you hope performers will create that kind of colours?
Ans: I would say not so much but the soundscape is going to be a result of the gestural and the chosen actions. For example if we have a curly line, it could mean many things. It could mean like the pipa is wavering on the fret, or it could be the sanxian just tuning, or it could be like a vibrato on the qudi. So I won't say there is a specific soundscape but I do have an idea of what it would relate to, for example the wavering thing, of how it would relate to the music for example pitch bending or things like that.
Qn: So the piece of music has a lot of chance elements in it?
Ans: There is a lot of chance elements but the performers are required to find the relationship between the transition of one element to another, so for example, they are taking the cue from the pipa player, the pipa player is giving the first hint and they would take it from there and so there is an aspect of relationship.
Qn: There is no doubt an eclectic collection of compositional styles reflected in this collection of pieces, like you have fugue-like arrangement of the "Mei Hua San Nong", and minimalistic approach in "Mei Long Song", "Bai Mei" and then aleatoric elements in "Jin Mei", there are composers who feel that actually the essence of minimalistic and aleatoric approach are actually deeply rooted in traditional Chinese music, like guqin scoring or variation techniques found in "Lao Liu Ban" (老六板). So are there any specific reasons why you picked these styles?
Ans: No, when I compose, I don't actually think like I have to write using this technique or I have to write using Chinese elements. It's just the way I write it. My music is more, actually it's not that aleatoric because you look at the other scores, they may seem like there is a lot of chance elements but it's actually very tightly knitted. We are supposed to perform this element within a specific time-frame and the dynamics are all written out. So I'm not concerned about what style it is or the techniques it is, but it's important for me, a good piece of music is something that the audience can take away with them a specific impression. Even though they might not remember the music, they might not remember the melody, they might not even get the rhythm, they might not know what the harmony is, but they can have an impression of the sonic landscape.
Qn: So the sonic landscape, the soundscape is the biggest thing that you want audience to take away from all your compositions.
Ans: Yes. The ultimate thing is to create the soundscape. They could take off one element, that is fine, but it's in Chinese they would say 一種音樂的精神, that they would remember, but not in the mental way of remembering, like I know that I heard this piece, and the kind of impression that I got from it. You know, you might not know the melody, even I don't know the notes I've written. But there is some kind of a, it's not spiritual but there is some kind of an element in there that you can still remember and you will get a good impression of it. An impression of the soundscape.
23.12.11
Interview with Cao Wen Gong Part 3
Third and final instalment of our interview with Mr Cao Wen Gong.
English translations may be coming up once yours truly feels a little less lazy.
First part of the interview can be found here.
Second part can be found here
Qn: 中國音樂有一種旋律的發展手法，叫合頭合尾。那它指的是不是樂曲中不同段落中的開始和結尾的材料的相同？那在傳統用法中，這個相同或類似的材料指的是固定的音，或一個音型，可以包括轉調嗎？算不算是合頭合尾
Ans: 合頭合尾是一種中國傳統的曲式結構的一種做法，你比如春江花月夜，前面那一句，和尾部，你看，它春江花月夜它十段對吧，這個十段呢，每段出來都差不多。合頭，它頭一樣，走走走，它往這邊走了，走了走了又回去了。第二段出來，走了走，它這麼走。就是它一個段落的起，起承轉合的起和合最後呢，它形成一個相對固定的，人聽了後有種穩定感。
Qn: 那一定要在同一個調嗎？
Ans: 你說這個問題我就不好講。因為中國在調式的解釋上，中國古代的音樂裡邊啊，轉調不是那種像現在的概念。它可能是轉，比如說啊，你按現代的這個，轉到下屬調了，嗯，它那個概念可能沒有。它可能音符變了還會回來。它那個轉調的概念不是很鮮明。它不能用，就等於現代的，很多現代的名詞解釋中國古典音樂，都不是很恰當。它解釋現代音樂可能很準確，解釋這個就不是很準確了。
Qn: 現在很多中國音樂，很多都借鑒了西方的樂理和創作手法，而這可能淡化了中國原有的一些創作特色，或者原有的一些音樂發展手法。你對這種趨勢有甚麼看法呢？
Ans: 你問這問題呢，不是問我的問題，是整個音樂界都在談論的問題。這是個大問題，生死攸關的問題。因為一個領土的寶位啊，有槍有炮就行，有錢就行。我的領土你侵犯不了，我有拿了槍。文化呢，同樣有個安全問題。文化的安全，所有的國家都意識到這問題。你比如西方，德國人，他要叫那大師級的指揮家，鋼琴家，到小學里去，給他們講座。為甚麼？他在把他的文化紮根。同時他要輸出。他鼓勵那些音樂家，你們到中國去，我給你錢。為甚麼呢？他去侵略，去宣傳。我們華夏文化面臨一個問題，我們接收的遠遠多於輸出的。我們對西方的接收幾乎是全盤的。西方對我們的接收，是百分之零。不對等。全世界沒有一個民族這麼開化的。你比如說日本，日本接收西方東西很多，不知道你們去過了沒有，日本全世界有的它都有。但我跟你講，它最珍貴的還是它那老一套。他的歌舞伎啊，他的邦樂啊，他的能樂啊，他就像博物館一樣保存著。你到韓國你看看，最得意的是甚麼？是民族音樂家。不是拉小提琴的。是吧？你到韓國啊，他那個甚麼肯德基麥當勞，他不讓你開啊。他保存他那泡菜。他有個文化保衛的問題。中國不然。中國幾千個麥當勞，小孩子都吃垃圾食品。現在意識到了。實際上我個人看法，不在別人侵略，在你怎麼保衛自己。音樂同樣這個問題。音樂呢，西方發展到現在，很多手法，你講說這派那派的，我個人看法，這純屬個人觀點，可能不對，比如說法國，法國的現代的作曲家呢，他是根在法國，法國最浪漫，最主意多啊，他的這個現代派的，法國詩歌，他有多少呢，不多。作曲家儘儘占一小撮，他們好像一百來人嘛，國家每年撥款給他們，撥多少款呢？讓你活著。過好了也不行，發達也發達不了。但我給你錢讓你活著，保存你這個品種。美國也是這樣。美國的主意也是相當多，但是你看美國九大交響樂團的節目單，你就會發現，百分之百是傳統的。因此我們的作曲家頑強的表現是他自己。應該，你想到受眾。你寫個曲子給誰寫的。比如我寫的曲子給你寫的，你聽，現在的作曲家他多必想表現我自己多高強，多偉大，我技術多高，你聽不聽是你的事兒。所以本身它這種音樂，它慢慢脫離群眾。脫離群眾呢，它就沒有土壤，它可以自我封閉。我給評價到一等奬，甚麼獎我都拿，但是上演律是零，誰都不演。有這現象嗎？啊，聽說哪個作品金質獎章，啊國際比賽金質獎章。我們學校有個學生，我開玩笑說，我們有個女學生，迷迷糊糊地，說曹老師，我寫了東西你幫我看看。一點兒甚麼都不懂的，後來我們就，比如這個音域不對，這不對那兒不對，編制告訴你啊，一個管子，一個青衣，青衣就是唱戲的，再一個薩克管，一個鋼琴，一個甚麼，就不着調的那些東西。我們家那過幾天啊，＂曹老師，告訴您好消息。我呢在紐約比賽得金獎，呵呵呵...全額報送美國，你看就莫名其妙。那個音樂怎麼大家都覺得可笑，怎麼能演呢？不能演嘛，它行。但是這個呢，是一個暫時的，或者是它是一個品種。我對現代派的音樂，我是這麼想，就像每個人對美的追求，不一樣。但是呢，實在的發展到最後終歸，要一個美學生大概的一種認同。人類有認同感，比如說，打個比方，我和你們就有差距了。我女兒穿的褲子，破的，我回家佬逗她，我說咱們家怎麼這麼窮啊，幹嘛穿那破褲子？你老外了，這比那好褲子貴多了！呵呵...是吧？她覺得那個美。我看街上的女孩子穿那個鞋，一個紅的一個綠的，褲子一個長一個短。對於我審美觀念啊，她有病，是吧？對青年來講，時尚。就對美的概念。現代派音樂也是，可能出現一個噪音，哦好啊，今天感動我了，這音樂太好了。我聽甚麼呀，這大街上的噪聲，我不願意聽。就每個人對審美的概念不一樣。但是呢，最終，最終到終了，你看啊，男人還就是那套西服，存下來了。儘管一百年了，這西服沒有大的變化，還那樣。重要場合，還是兩個顏色，白的黑的。對吧？不是那穿得奇奇怪怪的，你假如那個奧巴馬弄個紅頭髮，你就不可想象了。就是傳統的美。音樂也是這樣。最後你發現，真正打動你的是甚麼？那真正打動你的，還是那些傳統的。傳統它都在發展，但是它不是天天有的啊。比如說我們這十年可能出了好作品，後人把它列為傳統。不是我們今天隨隨便便說貝多芬好，柴可夫斯基好，不是啊。你會出現柴可夫斯基，但是不是天天有的啊。現在呢，我不敢說現在現代派的從業人員怎麼講的，我就覺得應該更多的考慮到我們受眾。就是我們，比如說我們今天演這個，由我們宣傳的意思，從主觀的講，我在弘揚華夏文化，我在做一件善事，從另外一個角度，我就希望你們來買票看。因此我要對你們的胃口。同時我要把我的意圖告訴你。假如我不管你的意圖，我就說我這樣，那你不買票，你不來看。是不是，它就有這個問題。我想音樂呢，這些藝術家，如果想做得好一點，還是要踏踏實實走進社會，寫出一個好旋律不是一代人的問題。他們有一種說法就是浪漫派時期，浪漫派後期，已把旋律寫光了，你寫不出好東西了。所以乾脆咱們小邪門，跺著腳啊，拍拍桌子啊，扣兩下啊，叫幾聲，這叫音樂，實際上跟音樂無關，它不美。不是說現代派不好，他有些技法很好。實際上現代作曲人，傳統作曲人，大家都在努力往前探索技法。都在探索技法。不是說誰不探索誰探索。都在努力。但是努力有方向，為誰，我為群眾，受眾努力，我把音樂做得更好聽，更美不是做得你不想聽。
Qn: 那西方和中國對作曲的概念可能有些不同嗎？中國的音樂好像比較沒有突出個人，突出那作曲家的這個思想概念？
Ans: 有。它文化不太一樣，但這個作曲呢，畢竟是個人的，帶有強烈的個人色彩。任何作曲家，只要寫出歌來，就是他的。他對美的感受，在作曲裡面都有。他不會主意你的感受。他只主意我奏這個音樂你能不能接受。你對美的追求，我不問。我不問這個。就像現代人一樣，我在這兒演出，我可不管你喜歡吃甚麼，那是你的事兒。但是我覺得這是好吃，我介紹給你，這是我喜歡吃的。
Qn: 這中國音樂會不會好像比較允許演奏者在演奏的過程中，再自己創作？西方音樂比較嚴格，作曲家寫這個東西你演奏者就不許更動任何一個音符。
Ans: 這個是一樣的。這個是啊，作曲家有幾種，我都見過，有的作曲家他一字都不能改，比如我指揮一個作品，是你寫的，這句我聽不好，我說這句能不能去掉，不行。這種工作程序都是一樣的，有了個人的性格就不允許別人改。一個字兒都不許改。你改了我就不演奏了。還有一種呢，西方有個很偉大的作曲家，聽音樂會，聽完了，哎呀，這曲子奏得真好，誰寫的？啊你的！啊！他寫的他自己，就是，允許你改。就是他自己對他自己的作品特別寬容。隨便你們改，怎麼改都行。往好的改。他相信你往好的改。有的作曲家就是一個字都不許改，你改一個字我就告你。這個跟個人的性格。這個可不是說西方東方的，都有。我們都見過。
English translations may be coming up once yours truly feels a little less lazy.
Second part can be found here
Qn: 中國音樂有一種旋律的發展手法，叫合頭合尾。那它指的是不是樂曲中不同段落中的開始和結尾的材料的相同？那在傳統用法中，這個相同或類似的材料指的是固定的音，或一個音型，可以包括轉調嗎？算不算是合頭合尾
Ans: 合頭合尾是一種中國傳統的曲式結構的一種做法，你比如春江花月夜，前面那一句，和尾部，你看，它春江花月夜它十段對吧，這個十段呢，每段出來都差不多。合頭，它頭一樣，走走走，它往這邊走了，走了走了又回去了。第二段出來，走了走，它這麼走。就是它一個段落的起，起承轉合的起和合最後呢，它形成一個相對固定的，人聽了後有種穩定感。
Qn: 那一定要在同一個調嗎？
Ans: 你說這個問題我就不好講。因為中國在調式的解釋上，中國古代的音樂裡邊啊，轉調不是那種像現在的概念。它可能是轉，比如說啊，你按現代的這個，轉到下屬調了，嗯，它那個概念可能沒有。它可能音符變了還會回來。它那個轉調的概念不是很鮮明。它不能用，就等於現代的，很多現代的名詞解釋中國古典音樂，都不是很恰當。它解釋現代音樂可能很準確，解釋這個就不是很準確了。
Qn: 現在很多中國音樂，很多都借鑒了西方的樂理和創作手法，而這可能淡化了中國原有的一些創作特色，或者原有的一些音樂發展手法。你對這種趨勢有甚麼看法呢？
Ans: 你問這問題呢，不是問我的問題，是整個音樂界都在談論的問題。這是個大問題，生死攸關的問題。因為一個領土的寶位啊，有槍有炮就行，有錢就行。我的領土你侵犯不了，我有拿了槍。文化呢，同樣有個安全問題。文化的安全，所有的國家都意識到這問題。你比如西方，德國人，他要叫那大師級的指揮家，鋼琴家，到小學里去，給他們講座。為甚麼？他在把他的文化紮根。同時他要輸出。他鼓勵那些音樂家，你們到中國去，我給你錢。為甚麼呢？他去侵略，去宣傳。我們華夏文化面臨一個問題，我們接收的遠遠多於輸出的。我們對西方的接收幾乎是全盤的。西方對我們的接收，是百分之零。不對等。全世界沒有一個民族這麼開化的。你比如說日本，日本接收西方東西很多，不知道你們去過了沒有，日本全世界有的它都有。但我跟你講，它最珍貴的還是它那老一套。他的歌舞伎啊，他的邦樂啊，他的能樂啊，他就像博物館一樣保存著。你到韓國你看看，最得意的是甚麼？是民族音樂家。不是拉小提琴的。是吧？你到韓國啊，他那個甚麼肯德基麥當勞，他不讓你開啊。他保存他那泡菜。他有個文化保衛的問題。中國不然。中國幾千個麥當勞，小孩子都吃垃圾食品。現在意識到了。實際上我個人看法，不在別人侵略，在你怎麼保衛自己。音樂同樣這個問題。音樂呢，西方發展到現在，很多手法，你講說這派那派的，我個人看法，這純屬個人觀點，可能不對，比如說法國，法國的現代的作曲家呢，他是根在法國，法國最浪漫，最主意多啊，他的這個現代派的，法國詩歌，他有多少呢，不多。作曲家儘儘占一小撮，他們好像一百來人嘛，國家每年撥款給他們，撥多少款呢？讓你活著。過好了也不行，發達也發達不了。但我給你錢讓你活著，保存你這個品種。美國也是這樣。美國的主意也是相當多，但是你看美國九大交響樂團的節目單，你就會發現，百分之百是傳統的。因此我們的作曲家頑強的表現是他自己。應該，你想到受眾。你寫個曲子給誰寫的。比如我寫的曲子給你寫的，你聽，現在的作曲家他多必想表現我自己多高強，多偉大，我技術多高，你聽不聽是你的事兒。所以本身它這種音樂，它慢慢脫離群眾。脫離群眾呢，它就沒有土壤，它可以自我封閉。我給評價到一等奬，甚麼獎我都拿，但是上演律是零，誰都不演。有這現象嗎？啊，聽說哪個作品金質獎章，啊國際比賽金質獎章。我們學校有個學生，我開玩笑說，我們有個女學生，迷迷糊糊地，說曹老師，我寫了東西你幫我看看。一點兒甚麼都不懂的，後來我們就，比如這個音域不對，這不對那兒不對，編制告訴你啊，一個管子，一個青衣，青衣就是唱戲的，再一個薩克管，一個鋼琴，一個甚麼，就不着調的那些東西。我們家那過幾天啊，＂曹老師，告訴您好消息。我呢在紐約比賽得金獎，呵呵呵...全額報送美國，你看就莫名其妙。那個音樂怎麼大家都覺得可笑，怎麼能演呢？不能演嘛，它行。但是這個呢，是一個暫時的，或者是它是一個品種。我對現代派的音樂，我是這麼想，就像每個人對美的追求，不一樣。但是呢，實在的發展到最後終歸，要一個美學生大概的一種認同。人類有認同感，比如說，打個比方，我和你們就有差距了。我女兒穿的褲子，破的，我回家佬逗她，我說咱們家怎麼這麼窮啊，幹嘛穿那破褲子？你老外了，這比那好褲子貴多了！呵呵...是吧？她覺得那個美。我看街上的女孩子穿那個鞋，一個紅的一個綠的，褲子一個長一個短。對於我審美觀念啊，她有病，是吧？對青年來講，時尚。就對美的概念。現代派音樂也是，可能出現一個噪音，哦好啊，今天感動我了，這音樂太好了。我聽甚麼呀，這大街上的噪聲，我不願意聽。就每個人對審美的概念不一樣。但是呢，最終，最終到終了，你看啊，男人還就是那套西服，存下來了。儘管一百年了，這西服沒有大的變化，還那樣。重要場合，還是兩個顏色，白的黑的。對吧？不是那穿得奇奇怪怪的，你假如那個奧巴馬弄個紅頭髮，你就不可想象了。就是傳統的美。音樂也是這樣。最後你發現，真正打動你的是甚麼？那真正打動你的，還是那些傳統的。傳統它都在發展，但是它不是天天有的啊。比如說我們這十年可能出了好作品，後人把它列為傳統。不是我們今天隨隨便便說貝多芬好，柴可夫斯基好，不是啊。你會出現柴可夫斯基，但是不是天天有的啊。現在呢，我不敢說現在現代派的從業人員怎麼講的，我就覺得應該更多的考慮到我們受眾。就是我們，比如說我們今天演這個，由我們宣傳的意思，從主觀的講，我在弘揚華夏文化，我在做一件善事，從另外一個角度，我就希望你們來買票看。因此我要對你們的胃口。同時我要把我的意圖告訴你。假如我不管你的意圖，我就說我這樣，那你不買票，你不來看。是不是，它就有這個問題。我想音樂呢，這些藝術家，如果想做得好一點，還是要踏踏實實走進社會，寫出一個好旋律不是一代人的問題。他們有一種說法就是浪漫派時期，浪漫派後期，已把旋律寫光了，你寫不出好東西了。所以乾脆咱們小邪門，跺著腳啊，拍拍桌子啊，扣兩下啊，叫幾聲，這叫音樂，實際上跟音樂無關，它不美。不是說現代派不好，他有些技法很好。實際上現代作曲人，傳統作曲人，大家都在努力往前探索技法。都在探索技法。不是說誰不探索誰探索。都在努力。但是努力有方向，為誰，我為群眾，受眾努力，我把音樂做得更好聽，更美不是做得你不想聽。
Qn: 那西方和中國對作曲的概念可能有些不同嗎？中國的音樂好像比較沒有突出個人，突出那作曲家的這個思想概念？
Ans: 有。它文化不太一樣，但這個作曲呢，畢竟是個人的，帶有強烈的個人色彩。任何作曲家，只要寫出歌來，就是他的。他對美的感受，在作曲裡面都有。他不會主意你的感受。他只主意我奏這個音樂你能不能接受。你對美的追求，我不問。我不問這個。就像現代人一樣，我在這兒演出，我可不管你喜歡吃甚麼，那是你的事兒。但是我覺得這是好吃，我介紹給你，這是我喜歡吃的。
Qn: 這中國音樂會不會好像比較允許演奏者在演奏的過程中，再自己創作？西方音樂比較嚴格，作曲家寫這個東西你演奏者就不許更動任何一個音符。
Ans: 這個是一樣的。這個是啊，作曲家有幾種，我都見過，有的作曲家他一字都不能改，比如我指揮一個作品，是你寫的，這句我聽不好，我說這句能不能去掉，不行。這種工作程序都是一樣的，有了個人的性格就不允許別人改。一個字兒都不許改。你改了我就不演奏了。還有一種呢，西方有個很偉大的作曲家，聽音樂會，聽完了，哎呀，這曲子奏得真好，誰寫的？啊你的！啊！他寫的他自己，就是，允許你改。就是他自己對他自己的作品特別寬容。隨便你們改，怎麼改都行。往好的改。他相信你往好的改。有的作曲家就是一個字都不許改，你改一個字我就告你。這個跟個人的性格。這個可不是說西方東方的，都有。我們都見過。
21.12.11
Interview with Cao Wen Gong Part 2
Here is the second part of the transcript of our interview with Mr Cao Wen Gong. You can read the first part of the interview here. Third and final part is still being painfully transcribed. Please be patient.
Qn: 漢代的音樂，唐代，宋代，到元明清時期的音樂，各有甚麼特點呢？
Ans: 這個呢，很難去，就是很難我們去，不是專門搞研究的，很難去說它。但是我們國家呢，唐朝以前，我們呢，就音樂的演奏，從宮內到宮外，已經規模大得不得了了。因為從春秋時期，孔子就說過，人生六技，就人必須學會的六見事，其中一項就是音樂。說國家滅亡，是禮崩樂壞。禮和樂這麼重要。因此呢，中國的音樂從歷史上看，這個，非常豐滿。但是又一個問題呢，隨著朝代的不同呢，它著延點不一樣。比如說唐代的音樂，你們看呢，應該是很大氣，因為是鼎盛時期，叫盛唐。它的那個音樂，唐朝有十部大曲，過去沒有音樂會的形式啊，它是歌舞，載歌載舞的那種。比如說宋代啊，它多於戲曲。它的音樂表面看沒落了，但是其實更豐富了，更深入民間了。比如說唐先祖就出現了，出現了大戲曲家。到清代，就是宮裡面，就有樂坊。甚麼叫樂坊呢，就是教坊。實際上就是政府要辦音樂學院了。它每個禮節，比如說皇帝今天過生日，今天公主下降，今天皇帝出去打獵去，今天皇帝喝酒，等等等等的，皇帝甚麼待遇，皇后甚麼待遇，公主甚麼待遇，大丞甚麼待遇，音樂都是不同的。比如說你們知道有宮廷音樂下邊就有王府音樂。比如說你們知道線索十三套，等等等等，王府的音樂。再下邊又有地方音樂，有江南絲竹，有甚麼河北吹歌，再下邊又有民間音樂，它很豐富。我們的音樂它主要的是以時代的特點，另外的就是地方的特點。同樣的音樂，到南方到北方是不一樣的。所以音樂呢，很難用一個朝代去說准了它的音樂，因為一個朝代本身就是千奇百怪的。這個就很豐富，總的來講就是。
Qn： 中國的板式結構，書上所記載的好像很早的時候就出現在漢朝的「相和大曲」，那我不知道是不是更早以前就有這種速度佈局還是大曲中通常都傾向這種漸變式的速度佈局而後人在研究的時候再給他取了名說有散序、中序和迫的這種段落？
Ans: 你說這個就很專業了。那音樂呢應該是屬於現從民間，現從內心肺腑發出來的。其中一些總結式的，甚至包括這個平均律的音階，這都是人為的，不是自然的。包括我們的七聲音階，五聲音階，後人給總結的。就你談到的節奏也是這個問題。中國的節奏應該是很豐富的，中國的調式很豐富，中國的音律也很豐富。你說的，比如說漢代的「相和歌」里邊，它一些對節奏的看法其實這些東西從歷史上都有，只不過後人的總結，從音樂里看，我們唐代音樂裡邊，它不是個五聲音階的，就是很多東西都是七聲的。今天咱們演唱這個姜白石的，很明顯。它不但七聲，還有變音，而且聽得非常諧調。是不是我們後人去給他加的，不是。原來就這樣。另外節奏，我們古人的節奏非常...有些比如西方人說中國沒有三拍子，中國就是二拍子，其實大錯特錯。中國唐代以前，不要說三拍子，七拍子，九拍子，甚麼都有，很豐富的，只不過我們受儒家思維的影響對於二拍子比較接受得多。對稱啊，對仗啊，這平衡啊，就是受思想體意的影響。中國人更習慣，更喜歡這種一板一眼的。平常我們說話啊，這人說話一板一眼的，表揚他呢。一板一眼甚麼？四二。對吧？一板一眼。其中就是對於節奏，對於這個音律，甚至於對於這個音程這種用現代的名詞去解釋的話我們古代應該說是非常豐富的。就比如說你們看到的這個睢縣出土這個編鐘，它十二平均律的。它不是七聲音階。它很怪的。它一個鐘上面就出三度，所以古人很多東西，我們現在還沒辦法破解。因為主要傳承的，給我們留下能研究的資料太少了它不像文學。所以很多東西呢隨著時代的發展，隨著考古的發展，會有些新的證據，會有些新的東西讓我們更前進一步。
Qn: 古代的音樂，尤其是民歌都是口傳的，那隨著時代的演變，音樂也會跟著一起改變。不過現在已經有了錄影，錄音這些東西，那你覺得這會不會使到這些音樂的演變可能停滯不變？
Ans: 你說這個問題非常非常好。這問題也太專業了，也是在研究。甚麼叫民歌？民歌的概念現在還是含糊的。但總的來講，它應該是流傳在民間的，以口頭流傳方式為主的，這種叫民歌。民歌有沒有作者，應該說每一首民歌都有作者，而不是一個作者。比如說一個茉莉花，從800年前就有這歌了。最初它不叫茉莉花，它叫這個小花莖頂，就每個月唱一種。正月比如唱甚麼花，它唱很多花，但中國人衷情茉莉花，把茉莉花提出來了。你演唱的時候啊，你可能改了一句，他演唱他添了一句，所以這個茉莉花到今天，是多少人的這個心血在裡面。它這茉莉花流傳到江蘇了，變成亞洲民歌了。流傳到寧夏了，變成寧夏民歌了。但是兩茉莉花不一樣了。詞兒也變了，曲子也變了。但可能主題有一句沒變。你們這次奏的花鼓裡面就發現有茉莉花，是嗎，也出現這個問題。它民間的東西都是，這個 3212 起源於哪兒，中國歷史上最著名的，一個歌一個曲子。一個歌，就孟姜女哭長城，一個曲子老六板，包括你們聽的甚麼這個陽春白雪啊，春江花月夜，都是來自於老六板。中國很多歌都來自於孟姜女。就是演變。所以民歌就一個問題，隨著時代的演變，口傳心授，就避免不了的創造性。你到我們這南方了，我們這個音我們發不了，我們就變了。比如這個 4，3，235321，你到陝西，234321。它變了，變成苦調。你們聽那個秦腔啊，是嗎，它是一樣的，只不過它變了一個音，這個調全變了。錄音機出現，格式化的出現應該說對於民間音樂的流傳，有了很大的好處，就是方便了，不好處就是啊，給你提供了模式了，影響你的創造性。比如說現在提出來的，電視裡的歌手，千人一面，為甚麼呢？不要怨歌手，怨我們傳真方式。一播彭麗媛的，大家都效，彭麗媛都出來了。他學的就那彭麗媛。你唱得不對，她是那麼唱的。有根據。這個呢，培養了一大批很優秀的歌手，但同樣的，也扼殺了一些東西。因為大家認可嘛，你不那麼唱就是不對了。你 3 改成 4 不對了。古代不這樣。你們在研究民歌，你們看到古人的創造性不得了，是吧？先進的技術會帶來先進的成果，但是同時有利就有弊。但是利大。就像我們今天呢，生活好了，同時你就污染了。是吧？你破壞了生態。
Qn: 漢代的音樂，唐代，宋代，到元明清時期的音樂，各有甚麼特點呢？
Ans: 這個呢，很難去，就是很難我們去，不是專門搞研究的，很難去說它。但是我們國家呢，唐朝以前，我們呢，就音樂的演奏，從宮內到宮外，已經規模大得不得了了。因為從春秋時期，孔子就說過，人生六技，就人必須學會的六見事，其中一項就是音樂。說國家滅亡，是禮崩樂壞。禮和樂這麼重要。因此呢，中國的音樂從歷史上看，這個，非常豐滿。但是又一個問題呢，隨著朝代的不同呢，它著延點不一樣。比如說唐代的音樂，你們看呢，應該是很大氣，因為是鼎盛時期，叫盛唐。它的那個音樂，唐朝有十部大曲，過去沒有音樂會的形式啊，它是歌舞，載歌載舞的那種。比如說宋代啊，它多於戲曲。它的音樂表面看沒落了，但是其實更豐富了，更深入民間了。比如說唐先祖就出現了，出現了大戲曲家。到清代，就是宮裡面，就有樂坊。甚麼叫樂坊呢，就是教坊。實際上就是政府要辦音樂學院了。它每個禮節，比如說皇帝今天過生日，今天公主下降，今天皇帝出去打獵去，今天皇帝喝酒，等等等等的，皇帝甚麼待遇，皇后甚麼待遇，公主甚麼待遇，大丞甚麼待遇，音樂都是不同的。比如說你們知道有宮廷音樂下邊就有王府音樂。比如說你們知道線索十三套，等等等等，王府的音樂。再下邊又有地方音樂，有江南絲竹，有甚麼河北吹歌，再下邊又有民間音樂，它很豐富。我們的音樂它主要的是以時代的特點，另外的就是地方的特點。同樣的音樂，到南方到北方是不一樣的。所以音樂呢，很難用一個朝代去說准了它的音樂，因為一個朝代本身就是千奇百怪的。這個就很豐富，總的來講就是。
Qn： 中國的板式結構，書上所記載的好像很早的時候就出現在漢朝的「相和大曲」，那我不知道是不是更早以前就有這種速度佈局還是大曲中通常都傾向這種漸變式的速度佈局而後人在研究的時候再給他取了名說有散序、中序和迫的這種段落？
Ans: 你說這個就很專業了。那音樂呢應該是屬於現從民間，現從內心肺腑發出來的。其中一些總結式的，甚至包括這個平均律的音階，這都是人為的，不是自然的。包括我們的七聲音階，五聲音階，後人給總結的。就你談到的節奏也是這個問題。中國的節奏應該是很豐富的，中國的調式很豐富，中國的音律也很豐富。你說的，比如說漢代的「相和歌」里邊，它一些對節奏的看法其實這些東西從歷史上都有，只不過後人的總結，從音樂里看，我們唐代音樂裡邊，它不是個五聲音階的，就是很多東西都是七聲的。今天咱們演唱這個姜白石的，很明顯。它不但七聲，還有變音，而且聽得非常諧調。是不是我們後人去給他加的，不是。原來就這樣。另外節奏，我們古人的節奏非常...有些比如西方人說中國沒有三拍子，中國就是二拍子，其實大錯特錯。中國唐代以前，不要說三拍子，七拍子，九拍子，甚麼都有，很豐富的，只不過我們受儒家思維的影響對於二拍子比較接受得多。對稱啊，對仗啊，這平衡啊，就是受思想體意的影響。中國人更習慣，更喜歡這種一板一眼的。平常我們說話啊，這人說話一板一眼的，表揚他呢。一板一眼甚麼？四二。對吧？一板一眼。其中就是對於節奏，對於這個音律，甚至於對於這個音程這種用現代的名詞去解釋的話我們古代應該說是非常豐富的。就比如說你們看到的這個睢縣出土這個編鐘，它十二平均律的。它不是七聲音階。它很怪的。它一個鐘上面就出三度，所以古人很多東西，我們現在還沒辦法破解。因為主要傳承的，給我們留下能研究的資料太少了它不像文學。所以很多東西呢隨著時代的發展，隨著考古的發展，會有些新的證據，會有些新的東西讓我們更前進一步。
Qn: 古代的音樂，尤其是民歌都是口傳的，那隨著時代的演變，音樂也會跟著一起改變。不過現在已經有了錄影，錄音這些東西，那你覺得這會不會使到這些音樂的演變可能停滯不變？
Ans: 你說這個問題非常非常好。這問題也太專業了，也是在研究。甚麼叫民歌？民歌的概念現在還是含糊的。但總的來講，它應該是流傳在民間的，以口頭流傳方式為主的，這種叫民歌。民歌有沒有作者，應該說每一首民歌都有作者，而不是一個作者。比如說一個茉莉花，從800年前就有這歌了。最初它不叫茉莉花，它叫這個小花莖頂，就每個月唱一種。正月比如唱甚麼花，它唱很多花，但中國人衷情茉莉花，把茉莉花提出來了。你演唱的時候啊，你可能改了一句，他演唱他添了一句，所以這個茉莉花到今天，是多少人的這個心血在裡面。它這茉莉花流傳到江蘇了，變成亞洲民歌了。流傳到寧夏了，變成寧夏民歌了。但是兩茉莉花不一樣了。詞兒也變了，曲子也變了。但可能主題有一句沒變。你們這次奏的花鼓裡面就發現有茉莉花，是嗎，也出現這個問題。它民間的東西都是，這個 3212 起源於哪兒，中國歷史上最著名的，一個歌一個曲子。一個歌，就孟姜女哭長城，一個曲子老六板，包括你們聽的甚麼這個陽春白雪啊，春江花月夜，都是來自於老六板。中國很多歌都來自於孟姜女。就是演變。所以民歌就一個問題，隨著時代的演變，口傳心授，就避免不了的創造性。你到我們這南方了，我們這個音我們發不了，我們就變了。比如這個 4，3，235321，你到陝西，234321。它變了，變成苦調。你們聽那個秦腔啊，是嗎，它是一樣的，只不過它變了一個音，這個調全變了。錄音機出現，格式化的出現應該說對於民間音樂的流傳，有了很大的好處，就是方便了，不好處就是啊，給你提供了模式了，影響你的創造性。比如說現在提出來的，電視裡的歌手，千人一面，為甚麼呢？不要怨歌手，怨我們傳真方式。一播彭麗媛的，大家都效，彭麗媛都出來了。他學的就那彭麗媛。你唱得不對，她是那麼唱的。有根據。這個呢，培養了一大批很優秀的歌手，但同樣的，也扼殺了一些東西。因為大家認可嘛，你不那麼唱就是不對了。你 3 改成 4 不對了。古代不這樣。你們在研究民歌，你們看到古人的創造性不得了，是吧？先進的技術會帶來先進的成果，但是同時有利就有弊。但是利大。就像我們今天呢，生活好了，同時你就污染了。是吧？你破壞了生態。
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